Crafting and Gathering.

Hype

Astellian
Jun 17, 2019
135
113
43
If crafted items are exactly the same stat wise as rng dropped items in legendary dungeons why would making them easy to get be an option? Shouldn't they be difficult to make? Why would you want someone to be able to craft something simply when it may take you weeks to get it in a dungeon? Wouldn't it therefore make sense it would take longer to get simply crafting the item? What would be the point of the Dungeons that drop the items at all?

I do agree with the points the OP makes about volume of mats required and even the volume of mats dropped but crafting a best in slot item should be an achievement! Not just going through the motions. I have never been lucky in mmos, I very rarely get my gear drop before everyone else, Rng truly hates me and I would hate for someone to craft the item I need easily. Is the balance right atm? Time will tell. Its also something they need to sort out prior to launch so as to avoid a circumstance like the OP has said where you craft it using all those mats you somehow gathered, and they drop the amount req'd after a couple of months.

Anyway there is so much of games being made atm that is completely subjective. Some crafters just love to craft and dont want it to be easy they just love the grind and the thrill of the proc.
But they are jealous of the pvpers that can access pvp gear or dungeon runners that obtain gear there. The latter 2 also envy the crafters when they achieve said proc. If all BiS gear is easy to get the game has no longevity.

As I have said before if 100 people play the game and 1 or 2 don't like a system does it make it wrong? Should it be changed? Is it the way it is in Korea ( I havnt played) if it is, is it a problem there? Or are they ok with it and should we change it due to our " I want it now " in the western market? I know Korean mmos are grindy but that's the design we burn through content fast because we have our versions eliminate the grind its not for everyone.


P.S could not agree more about the exp with crafting gathering I am meh when it comes to exp as I do it whilst questing but to stop and crft should be " Some" exp or as OP said you fall behind!
 

Xovian

Astellian
May 27, 2019
403
439
63
@Hype,

Just got to ask on your post script (P.S.) about getting XP when crafting:

Do you think when adding runes to an Astel should give xp?
Do you think adding runes to your gear should give XP?
Do you think when enchanting your gear you should get xp?

If you said no to any of those three, than you need to ask why not.
The above 3 do have something in common with crafting, they are all used to upgrade your character.
Should one of them be rewarded and others not, just because one is something done over a larger amount of time?

When it comes to crafting gear, you are already being rewarded unless the crafting can fail.
Just a different perspective to view it from.
 
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Ideabulb

Astellian
Jul 5, 2019
71
24
8
@Hype,

Just got to ask on your post script (P.S.) about getting XP when crafting:

Do you think when adding runes to an Astel should give xp?
Do you think adding runes to your gear should give XP?
Do you think when enchanting your gear you should get xp?

If you said no to any of those three, than you need to ask why not.
The above 3 do have something in common with crafting, they are all used to upgrade your character.
Should one of them be rewarded and others not, just because one is something done over a larger amount of time?

When it comes to crafting gear, you are already being rewarded unless the crafting can fail.
Just a different perspective to view it from.
No and you are way off point. To get those runes enchanting materials or star jewels you called runes you have to kill things usually in dungeons. Meaning you already got experience and contributed to your guild. With gathering and crafting you have gained zero and therefore have contributed zero gain to your guild. This is a problem.
 

Xovian

Astellian
May 27, 2019
403
439
63
I will concede the point that it does not add guild contribution. Whether it should or not is another matter, as that's a big picture element, and not so easily stated with a simple blanket statement, because its effects can be more far reaching then the individual purpose of crafting by a single character.

However, given that crafting does not fail and you are already being rewarded by gaining the item, adding bonus or incentive is not entirely necessary IMO. Saying it is a problem is a bit of an overreaction, as we do not know the long term scale any changes like that may have. You've been fond of stating we can't go by KR, and can only use NA/EU data, which simply put, players don't have enough information to make an adequate determination due to the small sample size of testers and the limited time of testing. Again, our own internal testing as far as players is not the reason for the CBT's, it's for the Dev's to get the required information they need, which up to this point they have not stated what it was for or what they have concluded, if anything.
 

Sonnendieb

Astellian
Jul 1, 2019
102
299
63
To get those runes enchanting materials or star jewels you called runes you have to kill things usually in dungeons.
Sry, but you can craft [Runes], [Star Jewels] & [Atra Crystals]. And maybe the best way to get this in [legendary].

Edit:
gathering skill = relic investigation
crafting skill = archeology
 

Ideabulb

Astellian
Jul 5, 2019
71
24
8
I will concede the point that it does not add guild contribution. Whether it should or not is another matter, as that's a big picture element, and not so easily stated with a simple blanket statement, because its effects can be more far reaching then the individual purpose of crafting by a single character.

However, given that crafting does not fail and you are already being rewarded by gaining the item, adding bonus or incentive is not entirely necessary IMO. Saying it is a problem is a bit of an overreaction, as we do not know the long term scale any changes like that may have. You've been fond of stating we can't go by KR, and can only use NA/EU data, which simply put, players don't have enough information to make an adequate determination due to the small sample size of testers and the limited time of testing. Again, our own internal testing as far as players is not the reason for the CBT's, it's for the Dev's to get the required information they need, which up to this point they have not stated what it was for or what they have concluded, if anything.
You get items from dungeons which is why people run them. Should you not gain any experience from those things either? Should there be a place where you get no items where you gain only experience? No that would be boring.
 

Xovian

Astellian
May 27, 2019
403
439
63
By doing all of those above things you are already gaining items for crafting, thus you are already being rewarded for getting them, XP included.
You seem to think another reward is needed when making the items, even though you were already given an awarded (xp included) when obtaining them (crafting mats to clarify). This could cause a shift in crafting being said to be giving too much.

Adding guild contribution to it could also have negative affects that are not desired, the most easily noted would be how fast a guild levels which may have undesirable affects between guilds and their rankings. Smaller guilds would quickly fall noticeably behind larger guilds. It has publicly been stated, and more than once, that the Staff do not desire for larger guilds to have significant advantages over smaller guilds.
 

Ideabulb

Astellian
Jul 5, 2019
71
24
8
By doing all of those above things you are already gaining items for crafting, thus you are already being rewarded for getting them, XP included.
You seem to think another reward is needed when making the items, even though you were already given an awarded (xp included) when obtaining them (crafting mats to clarify). This could cause a shift in crafting being said to be giving too much.

Adding guild contribution to it could also have negative affects that are not desired, the most easily noted would be how fast a guild levels which may have undesirable affects between guilds and their rankings. Smaller guilds would quickly fall noticeably behind larger guilds. It has publicly been stated, and more than once, that the Staff do not desire for larger guilds to have significant advantages over smaller guilds.
No again I seem to think guild contribution is important and doing one should not take alot of time away from the other.
 

Hype

Astellian
Jun 17, 2019
135
113
43
@Hype,

Just got to ask on your post script (P.S.) about getting XP when crafting:

Do you think when adding runes to an Astel should give xp?
Do you think adding runes to your gear should give XP?
Do you think when enchanting your gear you should get xp?

If you said no to any of those three, than you need to ask why not.
The above 3 do have something in common with crafting, they are all used to upgrade your character.
Should one of them be rewarded and others not, just because one is something done over a larger amount of time?

When it comes to crafting gear, you are already being rewarded unless the crafting can fail.
Just a different perspective to view it from.
Did I say adding runes should gain exp?
Did I say Runing gear should add exp?
Did I say enchanting gear should gain experience?

Nope !

In most games I have played where there is crafting exp due to the time it takes to level crafting ( which is the tedious part) it requires a fair amount of time when not grinding. Its never a large amount of exp like you would gain from questing but its always something that helps players that craft for the guild not fall so far behind when trying to lvl. I agree you get something for it but in general its useless crap you craft to lvl crafting because you have to.

My "opinion" on it (which as you know we are all entitled to) is that of the OP that there is some exp for it, may be ours is different to yours but makes it no less valid @Xovian

I wont say what I actually thought of the post I quoted as I will let it pass for now...
 
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Xovian

Astellian
May 27, 2019
403
439
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My "opinion" on it (which as you know we are all entitled to) is that of the OP that there is some exp for it, may be ours is different to yours but makes it no less valid @Xovian

I wont say what I actually thought of the post I quoted as I will let it pass for now...
Of all that you wrote i find the final portion the most interesting.
As i stated in that post, it was meant to look at it from a different perspective.
Neutral, neither for nor against. Looking at it from multiple view points is always important in a discussion.

Also based on my received comments from the OP, it isn't just XP for the player but guild XP that is also being asked for.
Those two are very different things.

The first one of which, previously in this very thread as you recall i myself wondered why it was not included.
Though it was incorrectly stated as i said gathering, not crafting. It was a bit of combined thought, that did not come out right. So let me correct it: Gathering does gain XP, and would be odd if it didn't give it being limited to one (I'm surprised no one had corrected this). Crafting, I'm not sure if it's warranted but i see no reason it shouldn't unless it could be abused, as my previous post shows with what happened at release with GW2.

The other, giving guild xp, i do not agree with as i stated the reasons for it above.
Like you yourself pointed out, the game has been around else where live for over 7 months, to think this subject has not been approached already and determinations already made, is unlikely. But we are here to give our opinions on it, no?
 
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Hype

Astellian
Jun 17, 2019
135
113
43
Of all that you wrote i find the final portion the most interesting.
I wrote that because you felt the need to add in crap that no-one had mentioned and has never been implemented in any game like crafting exp. The comment was clearly put there to cause a reaction you got the reaction . I see you in a different light now so I will leave that there.

Like you yourself pointed out, the game has been around else where live for over 7 months, to think this subject has not been approached already and determinations already made, is unlikely. But we are here to give our opinions on it, no?
I mention that I agreed the idea of gaining exp from crafting was a good idea, and i am met with a comment that was clearly arguementative over an "Opinion". There are only a few people on these forums keeping them active atm as the CM's make no comment other than a thumbs up a welcome or a warning. Seems only 1 opinion matters on this forums clearly its not anyone, elses I am out.
 

Xovian

Astellian
May 27, 2019
403
439
63
I wrote that because you felt the need to add in crap that no-one had mentioned and has never been implemented in any game like crafting exp. The comment was clearly put there to cause a reaction you got the reaction . I see you in a different light now so I will leave that there.
And why wouldn't "crap" need to be viewed whether you agree with its addition or not?
You fail to understand my points so I'll break it down. I do not expect to change your opinion with it however, nor am i trying to.
If you list the pros/cons of its addition, there are more cons then pros, at least from what i see so here they are the pros and cons for giving xp for crafting:

Pro's:
-It gives an EXP reward for spending time in the game doing something that will help better a player.
-It makes up for time not spent doing quests/dungeons.

Those are the only pro's i can find with it, if ANYONE can name more, that doesn't equate to being one of the two above, I'm all ears.

Cons:
-Double reward of XP, as XP is gotten on acquire, regardless of how it was initially acquired.
-Potential for abuse/exploits allowing faster leveling than that intended by other means in the game.
-Such accounts (those having multiple maxed crafting) being traded/sold/accessed and/or used in TOS violations.
-Large guilds using the mechanics to defeat "spirit of the game" to mass produce items for various gains. In laymen terms, some group uses are just "too efficient" for what the intention of the bonus is meant to be.

While i am positive stuff could be added to both lists, I can't think of them right now. The latter of the cons does bare a bit of embellishment being required. Many large guilds have or build an account that maxes all crafting on a single character, which this game allows. This allows all resources to b funneled into one location, with out any excess, with out any waste. As we all know, it's time consuming to build up one crafting much less all of them. But also restricting it to a single guild account (or one crafting to one character) ensures the maximum benefit both from a gear standpoint and monetarily since the items can also be sold This creates, if nothing else, a perceived advantage for a guild doing this.

Edit: Ran out of time before for the expanded last item. The reason XP affects it, cause it allows the ability to keep making gear at level. There's no trade off, you never fall behind one way or another. Smaller guilds, much less solo, will always be behind in either level or crafting mats even if the xp is given, one clearly gains an advantage. This is not to mention the market control that can be gained by large guilds doing this (as they have done in other games). I will note and gladly admit, this particular con is early game only. First few months it would be a concern...after a year, no one is going to care. But for now, it earns a con, cause it would give an advantage.

Again, my point is not to dissuade you, but just informing of a different perspective, which may or may not be good or even "right".
I just see the reasons for why it may not have been included with the game, and some of those points, not everyone has seen happen in games before. I'm all in for the OP's request, for character gains, but only IF it can't be exploited. Exploitation early in a games life can be an ender, and none of us want that.

I mention that I agreed the idea of gaining exp from crafting was a good idea, and i am met with a comment that was clearly arguementative over an "Opinion". There are only a few people on these forums keeping them active atm as the CM's make no comment other than a thumbs up a welcome or a warning. Seems only 1 opinion matters on this forums clearly its not anyone, elses I am out.
It was not meant as argumentative, just a different view, which is generally desired in discussion. I've never once attacked your view, or tried to say its wrong in some fasion. I've only informed there are other ways to view it. Nothing more, nothing less. If you felt I was argumentative, my apologies. It was not the intention. I actually respect your opinion very highly.
 
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Iyo

Astellian
Jun 5, 2019
225
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I can't talk about crafting in Astellia because I don't know almost anything yet.

Of course IF it takes way too long and too much effort required to craft an item, instead getting it as an RNG based drop, there has to be an adjustment, IF crafting wanted to remain viable alternative.

All that is a big IF, let's wait and see, and ask changes after it's certain that they are needed -- but based on our version of the game. You know that Koreans like a bit more grind and maybe more RNG, so we can't say it's bad as it is, in their version, because that's how they want it.

That is true about guild contribution points too. Maybe these are already fixed or there are plans to change it for our version.

Even if things are bad and will be bad, in our opinion of course, we must be sure first that what we are asking is really needed and it's a good change for Astellia, in the long term.

tl;dr -- it's WAY too early to ask for these kind of changes
 

Anghya

Astellian
Jul 1, 2019
163
157
43
I can't talk about crafting in Astellia because I don't know almost anything yet.

Of course IF it takes way too long and too much effort required to craft an item, instead getting it as an RNG based drop, there has to be an adjustment, IF crafting wanted to remain viable alternative.

....
Speaking from CBT1 - getting certain material from open world (outside of dungeons) was very slow on early levels. For example, at level 20 I was able to craft just two weapons before I ran out of secondary material, which is dropped from monsters and cannot be gathered a "regular" way. Later I have discovered that this material seems to drop more often from the dungeon mobs and I suppose that running dungeons frequently will get you to comfortable amount of material over time. But unless there will be some drop rate adjustments made, I won't expect there will be possible to craft tons and tons of items like weapons and armors easily. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, in my opinion.
 
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Ideabulb

Astellian
Jul 5, 2019
71
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If crafted items are exactly the same stat wise as rng dropped items in legendary dungeons why would making them easy to get be an option? Shouldn't they be difficult to make? Why would you want someone to be able to craft something simply when it may take you weeks to get it in a dungeon? Wouldn't it therefore make sense it would take longer to get simply crafting the item? What would be the point of the Dungeons that drop the items at all?

I do agree with the points the OP makes about volume of mats required and even the volume of mats dropped but crafting a best in slot item should be an achievement! Not just going through the motions. I have never been lucky in mmos, I very rarely get my gear drop before everyone else, Rng truly hates me and I would hate for someone to craft the item I need easily. Is the balance right atm? Time will tell. Its also something they need to sort out prior to launch so as to avoid a circumstance like the OP has said where you craft it using all those mats you somehow gathered, and they drop the amount req'd after a couple of months.

Anyway there is so much of games being made atm that is completely subjective. Some crafters just love to craft and dont want it to be easy they just love the grind and the thrill of the proc.
But they are jealous of the pvpers that can access pvp gear or dungeon runners that obtain gear there. The latter 2 also envy the crafters when they achieve said proc. If all BiS gear is easy to get the game has no longevity.

As I have said before if 100 people play the game and 1 or 2 don't like a system does it make it wrong? Should it be changed? Is it the way it is in Korea ( I havnt played) if it is, is it a problem there? Or are they ok with it and should we change it due to our " I want it now " in the western market? I know Korean mmos are grindy but that's the design we burn through content fast because we have our versions eliminate the grind its not for everyone.


P.S could not agree more about the exp with crafting gathering I am meh when it comes to exp as I do it whilst questing but to stop and crft should be " Some" exp or as OP said you fall behind!
Heres my counter currently with the data floating around it is much longer to craft and gather the mats needed to make a legend than the time spend farming in dungeons and I do not mean a little I mean its like night and day. I do not even think its pheasable to craft atm simply b/c even if you spent time leveling one alt per week and did nothing but dungeons after leveling. You would have better odds of finding a legend in time spent on dungeons. That is after the long leveling process in this game.

P.S. One other thing to consider is the best in slot item. Its not only a low chance to proc a legend but then you have (up to)four random types of stats and random range on those stats to consider. People need to be able to make these not easy but not a alot of time either if they ever want to make a decent one for there class/playstyle. As it currently stands you could spend a year trying to make perfect for your playstyle and class before you could get what an average player would call godly or a few months just for decent.
 
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Ideabulb

Astellian
Jul 5, 2019
71
24
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Our CTB-1

Unfortunately, i haven't an screenshot from my inventory. And my gathering-skill wasn't high enough for this area.

Edit:
The screenshot isn't big enough, sry, but you can see there are 23 new types of items in my inventory. This is just from 1 Kill-Quest (2 times 50 mobs).
Of curse there was items like Runes, Star Jewels, crap, equip and craft materials. I think it was a good loot for just 100 kills.
Did you actually see things to gather in avalon? I explored it heavily in cbt2 and didnt see any gathering points besides food.
P.S. Sorry for necro posting but I'd like to know this.
 

Fireball36

Astellian
Jul 3, 2019
32
30
18
I will jump on this thread to ask a question - on the Wiki guide to crafting, it mentions that Carpentry is used to make weapons and armor for Scholars, Mages and Archers - is that correct in gameplay? It seems to me that those classes would uses wooden weapons (staves, wands and bows) but they wear cloth and leather armor so shouldn't that be handled under Tailoring? Looking at the guide, Tailoring only "crafts items for carpentry". That seems strange to me.

Also while I'm here - if we become awesome crafters, can we make better armor, weapons, etc. than we can find in NPC stores or random dungeon drops? Judging from what I've seen Ideabulb and others say, the huge amount of time needed to level crafting skills might not be worth it if one can get the same or better loot from dungeon running. I realize that the game hasn't started yet but I figured that I would throw the question out there. 🙈🙉🙊 (Sorry if this was answered elsewhere and I missed it...) :)
 

Anghya

Astellian
Jul 1, 2019
163
157
43
It is correct, I am just not sure about armors for Mages (I think those may be under Tailoring, but I may be wrong). But in the CBTs, the armor crafting for Archers and Scholars was under Carpentry, indeed.
You can craft even legendary armors/weapons, if do you have the rare components required and a little bit of luck (critical crafting success). But it's not better than the loot from the dungeons, it's just an alternative way how to obtain such loot. :)
 
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RedRobot

Astellian
Aug 21, 2019
66
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The good news is that it's not worse than the dungeon loot. For instance, in Elder Scrolls Online, you can't craft anything truly remarkable, and you lose money constantly unless you somehow and get lucky and sell stuff you've crafted to other players....which is harder than heck seeing as they don't have an AH.
 
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ShadowsDesire

Astellian
Jul 22, 2019
16
27
13
Honestly I feel this thread has made this more of a thing than it needed to be. To start Astellia was advertised as a "classic" MMO and most of the old classic ones didnt have crafting as a thing that gave xp or contribution. Regardless of whether the arguments for and against are valid or not its still an old style crafting system and those have always been built to have a con for each pro.

example/ Pro- chance to make legendary gear........... Con- Takes alot of materials for a small chance

Out of everything the only problem i have with the crafting and gathering system is that you can only take 1 gathering skill at a time. Which for people who farm achievements like me need to get every gathering skill to 50 for a single achievement. Doing it consistently will take like 20-24 hrs per gathering skill consitently farming an area for the mats.

IMO crafting in classic mmos has always been a end game thing and i believe it will be for this game too.
 
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