Game mechanics (Evasion/Accuracy)

Resouled

Astellian
Aug 25, 2019
9
2
3
Dear Astellia staff,

There are some things that worry me. I haven't played the CBT myself but have heard there are stats that exist called Evasion and Accuracy. So far these mechanics usually mean that PvP will revolve a lot about RNG. With the adding of an active dodging system this should take care of the evasion part and provide iFrames so you can actively dodge the skills you should dodge. Passive dodging/hitting are not fun game mechanics and only leads to frustration. So my question is, are you guys changing these stats/mechanics so the combat is based around actively managing your character rather than passively dodging skills/hits?

I really hope this is the case as it will provide more fun mechanics and a higher skill cap (learning what to dodge)
 

CM Venecia

Community Manager
Staff Member
May 23, 2019
788
2,138
93
We are currently working on making the combat system feel more dynamic and I personally agree with you - it's more fun to evade an attack by actively dodge rolling out of its way, instead of relying on passive skills only. 😁
 

Resouled

Astellian
Aug 25, 2019
9
2
3
We are currently working on making the combat system feel more dynamic and I personally agree with you - it's more fun to evade an attack by actively dodge rolling out of its way, instead of relying on passive skills only. 😁

Glad to hear that! I really hope you guys will remove passive RNG in skills/mechanics as they just become really frustrating over time.
 

ForestWolf

Astellian
May 26, 2019
127
157
43
30
Well if you consider dodge a random mecanic, that is frustrating you, then same should be said about critical hits...and randomness in drops and almost every other system in MMOs. A lot of builds and sometimes even whole classes evolve around these kind of random factors in fights
 

Iyo

Astellian
Jun 5, 2019
225
244
43
Well if you consider dodge a random mecanic, that is frustrating you, then same should be said about critical hits...and randomness in drops and almost every other system in MMOs. A lot of builds and sometimes even whole classes evolve around these kind of random factors in fights
They are all random or RNG based, on a fixed percent number to happen, but they aren't the same. It's not randomness in itself is bad, but being applied in a way that makes player skillfulness useless.

Critical hits are higher damage spikes, hopefully the fair trade-off being sacrificing 1 or 2 stats for that increased damage: a stat that increases the chance and another increasing the critical damage. These are fine, since they are just a way to increase base damage, balanced by it's trade-off. No player involvement is required or taken away.

Accuracy would be the chance to hit vs. miss, so even if you target perfectly, you can miss, if your accuracy roll decides so. No longer is up to you, but it's just a gambling. The game just mocks you, you still miss, no matter how well you play. This would be fine if included in a temporary debuff, but is just very bad as a permanent feature.

With Evasion is even worse, since a random chance can save you from being hit. This alone would be a mirror of the problem described above with Accuracy, but having both, leaves even less chance to "improve and play better".

Both Accuracy & Evasion removes player agency and replaces it with a gambling slot machine. This is very frustrating, because the game plays itself, player skill isn't involved anymore. One no longer can improve and become better, all you can do is get the best stats possible and let the game play itself.

These mechanics are good for a game where there is no 3D contact between players, like in a card game, so one lets RNG rolls decide the outcome, based on passive stats. In a game like Astellia where you can move away from damage == Evade, or target and keep facing while skill is active, passive accuracy and evasion are just a source of frustration, because it's not up to you, and thus you can't get better.

These mechanics have no place in a skill based game.
 

Ideabulb

Astellian
Jul 5, 2019
71
24
8
We are currently working on making the combat system feel more dynamic and I personally agree with you - it's more fun to evade an attack by actively dodge rolling out of its way, instead of relying on passive skills only. 😁
Agreed its more fun when you dodge an attack but evading shouldn't be taken out b/c of personal preference there are people who like to build around this as being missed gives them joy.
Having the freedom to play multiple ways will make a community thrive. Your gm in game also said this is how your staff feels is it not? Please dont take away our ability to build how we want.
Dear Astellia staff,

There are some things that worry me. I haven't played the CBT myself but have heard there are stats that exist called Evasion and Accuracy. So far these mechanics usually mean that PvP will revolve a lot about RNG. With the adding of an active dodging system this should take care of the evasion part and provide iFrames so you can actively dodge the skills you should dodge. Passive dodging/hitting are not fun game mechanics and only leads to frustration. So my question is, are you guys changing these stats/mechanics so the combat is based around actively managing your character rather than passively dodging skills/hits?

I really hope this is the case as it will provide more fun mechanics and a higher skill cap (learning what to dodge)
Its fair game its just like taking reduced damage except for you usually wont notice it. the person who is receiving misses will be thrilled by it just like someone would who is barely taking a good amount of damage but in a different way and to each their own. Having the freedom to play multiple ways will make a community thrive. Having things like status evasion crit evasion and regular evasion there is a point to be made that it can be a bit to much b/c you simply cant build for all three kinds the numbers would never be high enough but there is also a point to the reverse Having such a broad range of stats makes certain builds counter other builds more effective like build a counters build b build b counters build c build c counters build a. Something like this keeps the game balanced and fair for all just like certain classes countering some but failing against others.
 
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J4nnik

Astellian
May 23, 2019
69
107
33
@Resouled @Iyo
I think you both overestimate the impact that evasion and accuracy have ingame. Of course if you completely neglect accuracy you will have a problem but while doing some pvp in CBT2 against an assasin that was geared towards evasion I was only missing like 10-20% of my attacks. My gear in CBT2 was far from optimal, I had mostly "mage stats" and focused on accuracy, critical accuracy, status accuracy and critical attack but also had about 100 CON and some STR stat on my gear.
 

Resouled

Astellian
Aug 25, 2019
9
2
3
They are all random or RNG based, on a fixed percent number to happen, but they aren't the same. It's not randomness in itself is bad, but being applied in a way that makes player skillfulness useless.

Critical hits are higher damage spikes, hopefully the fair trade-off being sacrificing 1 or 2 stats for that increased damage: a stat that increases the chance and another increasing the critical damage. These are fine, since they are just a way to increase base damage, balanced by it's trade-off. No player involvement is required or taken away.

Accuracy would be the chance to hit vs. miss, so even if you target perfectly, you can miss, if your accuracy roll decides so. No longer is up to you, but it's just a gambling. The game just mocks you, you still miss, no matter how well you play. This would be fine if included in a temporary debuff, but is just very bad as a permanent feature.

With Evasion is even worse, since a random chance can save you from being hit. This alone would be a mirror of the problem described above with Accuracy, but having both, leaves even less chance to "improve and play better".

Both Accuracy & Evasion removes player agency and replaces it with a gambling slot machine. This is very frustrating, because the game plays itself, player skill isn't involved anymore. One no longer can improve and become better, all you can do is get the best stats possible and let the game play itself.

These mechanics are good for a game where there is no 3D contact between players, like in a card game, so one lets RNG rolls decide the outcome, based on passive stats. In a game like Astellia where you can move away from damage == Evade, or target and keep facing while skill is active, passive accuracy and evasion are just a source of frustration, because it's not up to you, and thus you can't get better.

These mechanics have no place in a skill based game.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
 

Resouled

Astellian
Aug 25, 2019
9
2
3
@Resouled @Iyo
I think you both overestimate the impact that evasion and accuracy have ingame. Of course if you completely neglect accuracy you will have a problem but while doing some pvp in CBT2 against an assasin that was geared towards evasion I was only missing like 10-20% of my attacks. My gear in CBT2 was far from optimal, I had mostly "mage stats" and focused on accuracy, critical accuracy, status accuracy and critical attack but also had about 100 CON and some STR stat on my gear.
It doesn't matter what the overall influence is. Having a 99% chance to hit is still frustrating when one of your key skills or attacks misses just because of that 1%.
 

Resouled

Astellian
Aug 25, 2019
9
2
3
Agreed its more fun when you dodge an attack but evading shouldn't be taken out b/c of personal preference there are people who like to build around this as being missed gives them joy.
Having the freedom to play multiple ways will make a community thrive. Your gm in game also said this is how your staff feels is it not? Please dont take away our ability to build how we want.

Its fair game its just like taking reduced damage except for you usually wont notice it. the person who is receiving misses will be thrilled by it just like someone would who is barely taking a good amount of damage but in a different way and to each their own. Having the freedom to play multiple ways will make a community thrive. Having things like status evasion crit evasion and regular evasion there is a point to be made that it can be a bit to much b/c you simply cant build for all three kinds the numbers would never be high enough but there is also a point to the reverse Having such a broad range of stats makes certain builds counter other builds more effective like build a counters build b build b counters build c build c counters build a. Something like this keeps the game balanced and fair for all just like certain classes countering some but failing against others.
There is a reason that a lot of newer MMORPG's don't use such mechanics anymore. They are outdated. Build diversity should be a thing and it's one of the main things I like about MMORPG's however stats like evasion and accuracy really aren't needed to create it. There are plenty of other ways. Through different traits, weapons, skills, astels whatnot. It just requires a bit more effort.
 

J4nnik

Astellian
May 23, 2019
69
107
33
It doesn't matter what the overall influence is. Having a 99% chance to hit is still frustrating when one of your key skills or attacks misses just because of that 1%.
I totally get what you are saying and why it bothers you but with that example you should complain about crit chance too because sometimes you will almost one hit your enemies with a combo and other times you will not even get them to half life with the same combo because of crit rng
So seeing how big the impact of crits is in this game that can be frustrating too
 

Resouled

Astellian
Aug 25, 2019
9
2
3
I totally get what you are saying and why it bothers you but with that example you should complain about crit chance too because sometimes you will almost one hit your enemies with a combo and other times you will not even get them to half life with the same combo because of crit rng
So seeing how big the impact of crits is in this game that can be frustrating too
Not that I disagree with your statement but atleast you still do damage. A miss is a miss.
 

Resouled

Astellian
Aug 25, 2019
9
2
3
Agreed its more fun when you dodge an attack but evading shouldn't be taken out b/c of personal preference there are people who like to build around this as being missed gives them joy.
Having the freedom to play multiple ways will make a community thrive. Your gm in game also said this is how your staff feels is it not? Please dont take away our ability to build how we want.

Its fair game its just like taking reduced damage except for you usually wont notice it. the person who is receiving misses will be thrilled by it just like someone would who is barely taking a good amount of damage but in a different way and to each their own. Having the freedom to play multiple ways will make a community thrive. Having things like status evasion crit evasion and regular evasion there is a point to be made that it can be a bit to much b/c you simply cant build for all three kinds the numbers would never be high enough but there is also a point to the reverse Having such a broad range of stats makes certain builds counter other builds more effective like build a counters build b build b counters build c build c counters build a. Something like this keeps the game balanced and fair for all just like certain classes countering some but failing against others.
Different builds should come from different weapons, traits, astels, skills and whatnot. Not by introducing additional stats. They do not create engaging gameplay and do not in any way make the game more enjoyable. The fact that you mention you get a "thrill" from being missed. Sure, but at the same time the other person that is missing gets annoyed or frustrated and as such the mechanic is a failure to make a game fun.

Take guildwars 2 for example, it has a combat system that relies on active dodging and actively using skills to get you through content. It creates way more dynamic and engaging gameplay because of it. RNG should be minimized and the player should feel in control of most things.
 

Iyo

Astellian
Jun 5, 2019
225
244
43
We have to remember that this game was made with a static fighting system where was no way to dodge an attack; so in that context the passive Evasion vs. Accuracy made sense.

We are just having a discussion, stating what we like and why, and that's fine, but I wouldn't expect suddenly a new system. Some tweaks in time maybe, since we already got the dodging system, that needs further improved still.
 

CM Venecia

Community Manager
Staff Member
May 23, 2019
788
2,138
93
Yes, I meant that the team is working on making the combat feel less rigid by doing things like implementing more skills without the animation locks, improving the dodge roll and such. I have no info about us taking stats like "evasion" out of the game so I'm pretty sure we won't. :)
 
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Resouled

Astellian
Aug 25, 2019
9
2
3
Yes, I meant that the team is working on making the combat feel less rigid by doing things like implementing more skills without the animation locks, improving the dodge roll and such. I have no info about us taking stats like "evasion" out of the game so I'm pretty sure we won't. :)
Will the dodge roll provide iFrames? Because if not, I don't think it will really work in this game. Also, sad to hear that does stats will remain. Are they staying the same as they are now or are they changed to fit more with the new dynamic gameplay?
 

Ideabulb

Astellian
Jul 5, 2019
71
24
8
Will the dodge roll provide iFrames? Because if not, I don't think it will really work in this game. Also, sad to hear that does stats will remain. Are they staying the same as they are now or are they changed to fit more with the new dynamic gameplay?
Again an iframe in this case would be too overpowered. You can't have a three second iframe you would never be hit by anything including auto attacks from bosses. Infinite kiting.
 

Resouled

Astellian
Aug 25, 2019
9
2
3
Again an iframe in this case would be too overpowered. You can't have a three second iframe you would never be hit by anything including auto attacks from bosses. Infinite kiting.
Creating a dodge without iframes would literally make no sense. The whole point of a dodge is to avoid key abilities. It doesn't have to be 3 seconds. 1 second is enough. Its all about making choices of which abilities to dodge and when.

Its all about balance. Cooldowns, Enemy skills etc.