So much RNG and less Astel progressing

ForestWolf

Astellian
May 26, 2019
127
157
43
31
instead of just implementing it into the zender shop,

wouldn't it be better to make it obtainable via quests within a) avalon (for the pvp crowd) b) the newly announced area (for the pve crowd) ... with a limit of how many you can earn per week (regardless of pve/pvp) ...

becouse as it seems now (at least from what i've heard),
zender will be largely available via pvp ... but not so much from doing pve ...

and there both, pvp'ers as well as pve'ers should have the same chances to get their hands on the good eq
Thats why they need to implement more possibilities to obtain zender, including PvE. That way a player can decide if and where he wants to earn zender and spend it on re-rolls.
 

Lewtz

Astellian
Sep 20, 2019
111
40
28
If you got to play inside solo and party dungeons week 1 you would of LoVED it! Was legendary drops almost every dungeon of some kind for everyone every run. Now you can do party whatever 50 times and see nothing. They wanted it like this.
 

Zellata

Astellian
Aug 3, 2019
215
104
43
You need to level all your astells. there is no singular astel card to get, as no card is going to max an astel, and its not like you can go for specific cards anyway, beyond a range. You buy the packs with the coins you get, maybe you farm dungeons for them but you should probably be using tickets to farm relics instead.
That doesn't help your case any, precisely because you can't go for a specific card. So, it still boils down to "you either get the card you need or you don't".

These things will come in time, and here is another point for how well this game is designed. The way jewelry works, which both magic and physical having two common slots and two rare slots. What is the main reason to have legendary over heroic accessory? The stats are higher yes, but more significant is the ability to equip better runes in them. The runes do not come that quickly, you can fill up your two more common jewelry slots while slowly going towards getting the more rare ones, and untill then a purple or even blue might suffice in those more rare slots with the right stat combinations.
You need to elaborate on your point here - it makes no sense to me, sorry. You can put lower grade runes into a higher grade item, so that part is completely separate from getting the right gear. If anything, this hurts your case, because of a potential situation where you may have higher grade runes, but lower grade gear, and can't use those runes unless you sacrifice stats on your gear. I.e. your warrior has legendary phys. def. or HP rune, but purple STR/CON item. You can either upgrade that item to, let's say legendary STR/INT now (sacrifice CON) and get that rune in, or you have to wait until you get the right legendary item.

None of the individual things you can improve in this game is anywhere near that significant, and you need to improve them all, and do improve them all, over time. Lets say someone did get very lucky on a perfect item, ok, so what? You yourself bring up the layer of atra crystal enhancement. Its basically impossible to even expect a single person to have maxed out all the kinds of progression. There is no thing you can say "when i do this, i will be best!" you just have to keep improving.
Except that's not how it works right now. Somebody gets lucky on a perfect item? Now it makes sense to enhance that item to +10. Somebody got lucky on atra crystal enhancement? That can be +10% to one of their main stats over other people. You are correct that there are many ways to improve, although all those ways boil down to increasing your stats in the end. That's not an issue. The issue is that all those ways are based on "win or lose" RNG, while they should be based on the "effort results in reward" concept. In other words, you can't really keep improving, you can only keep gambling.

This is good. Once we have fusion it will even make stat rolls easier, reducing some of the bottleneck.
That's unknown - we have no slightest idea how fusion is going to work.

Power is relative in such a game, there is no need to stress. Its a smooth averaged out progression over many layers of character improvement, its not all or nothing. Its not a game where you must reach a certain specific point, and you either succeed or fail, and if you fail then you have to spend weeks trying to get back to a point where you can attempt again, and then fail again, and so on, when others can do it on the first try. Those are terrible RNG games, this games is nice and comfortable because it has many layers of these things, and you will succeed some and fail others.
Not quite. We're already at the point where some folks can't do new legendary dungeons, because they are not geared and have no way to improve, aside from continuing to gamble. With Avalon coming this month, it's going to get much worse - the power difference is huge and basically results in geared players 1-shotting not geared players.

So sure, no rng at all would be best, but that would require reworking the entire game. When it comes to RNG games this one is much lower pressure than the typical for modern korean random progression.
It won't require reworking the entire game. A switch from RNG to fixed is very easy from a technical perspective - just set chance to 100%. It's the reverse (switch from fixed to random) that requires extensive rework, because you have to implement RNG that wasn't there originally.
 

Zwiebel

Astellian
Jul 4, 2019
409
329
63
While I dislike most ideas presented here (especially those where people suggest a severe buff to Astel drops and boxes) there is one suggestion I really like:

When you open a card box or finish a dungeon, you get a selection of 3 cards displayed on the screen of which you can pick one.
It would heavily reduce randomness while keeping the idea of RNG and trading card randomness intact.

It also makes the player more involved with completing a dungeon. It feels more rewarding to visibly display cards on screen after finishing a boss compared to only seeing a small number in chat.
 

Flet

Astellian
Oct 11, 2019
42
12
8
That doesn't help your case any, precisely because you can't go for a specific card. So, it still boils down to "you either get the card you need or you don't".
You need to get all the cards many times. Getting the one card you want is not going to help you much, you need to keep getting it over and over, and this averages out so that astell progression can not be targeted beyond one fourth of your servants, meaning you have to think more in terms of raising your entire collection of them slowly over time. This is the kind of smoothing out effect that means rng is reduced, as the most impact randomization might have is that on one day or another you might be slightly ahead or behind the expected curve for one astel or another, but by the time the one you really want is maxed out, the others you had to be raising with it will also be near maxed. So the difference between a lucky person and an unlucky person, most of the time, would be rather their favored astell is one star level ahead or behind the average for the category (of the 4 box groups and the guardian+savior group).

You need to elaborate on your point here - it makes no sense to me, sorry. You can put lower grade runes into a higher grade item, so that part is completely separate from getting the right gear. If anything, this hurts your case, because of a potential situation where you may have higher grade runes, but lower grade gear, and can't use those runes unless you sacrifice stats on your gear. I.e. your warrior has legendary phys. def. or HP rune, but purple STR/CON item. You can either upgrade that item to, let's say legendary STR/INT now (sacrifice CON) and get that rune in, or you have to wait until you get the right legendary item.
Because by the time you have enough legendary runes for everything you are surely going to have decent stat rolls. The idea is time to high-completion of potential. Things which you can expect to have by the time you are completing the longest grind of a system are less relevant in the end. Look at it like this. The two kinds of accessories, the ones that tend to roll physical or tend to roll magical, are skewed to ensure you can easily get a few good legendary items to hold your legendary runes. When it comes to the others you likely don't 'need' legendary yet to hold runes, and so you are only missing out on slightly better stats legendary instead of purple would be giving you. The system then complements each other, because by the time you would be likely to be both missing out on the stats from the item grade AND the higher bonuses from higher grade runes you will probably have the equipment sorted out, and still be working on a complete perfect rune set.
So the curve then gives you the potential for fairly easy and assured boost of power early on, with a gradual increase to finishing out the ideal. If it wasn't this way, if all accessories were equal in terms of stats, it would take longer to get any decent legendaries, and so because legendaries with out legendary runes to put into them are only part of the full potential strength of the legendary accessory+legendary rune, this system reduces the spikyness of the rng, if you get lucky early on and have good accessories all around you are still not fully up to their maximum as you lack the runes for them, but you are far less likely to be totally out of luck early on because its not hard to get at least two accessories (one offensive and one defensive) to put any lucky legendary runes you find into, and so you shouldn't find yourself ever having to decide between good purple accessory or the ability to use better runes for yourself.
This has to have been considered and intentional, because it softens the frequency of complete progression cliffs in the game, both assuring a single case of good luck is tempered by the other progression factors, and mitigating absolute bad luck by ensuring its not so hard to obtain at least minimal advancement.

Except that's not how it works right now. Somebody gets lucky on a perfect item? Now it makes sense to enhance that item to +10.
a fair point
Somebody got lucky on atra crystal enhancement? That can be +10% to one of their main stats over other people.
Yet with all the other sources of +stat%s it wont really ammount to an effective 10% more, since most people will be running around with ~20% from atra crystals as a reasonable expectation and then another guarenteed 16% from the quest legendaries and even their first legendary upgrade can be expected to bring that up to 25% from gear in their most relevent stat even if they only find a somewhat lousy upgrade. So we can assume 145% as a base reasonable expectation, and suddenly that 155% is not such a huge increase.

You are correct that there are many ways to improve, although all those ways boil down to increasing your stats in the end. That's not an issue. The issue is that all those ways are based on "win or lose" RNG, while they should be based on the "effort results in reward" concept. In other words, you can't really keep improving, you can only keep gambling.
My whole point however is that in many games there are only one main way to progress solidly, and that is a win or lose system as well, but in this game because we are constantly layering these systems and getting many chances to win or lose at individually less overall significant things to our entire progress, it averages out more and is less based on rng than those other games where a single lucky win puts you instantly on top and all your time is spent either not progressing at all for weeks and then progressing.

That's unknown - we have no slightest idea how fusion is going to work.
Id assume it will work the way it does in korean version, though maybe not? But depending on the aquisition of sealed equipment i suppose it may or may not be a useful method for trying to salvage sub optimal spreads.

Not quite. We're already at the point where some folks can't do new legendary dungeons, because they are not geared and have no way to improve, aside from continuing to gamble.
I keep seeing this focus on things that i dont think are sensible to be focusing on for the long term. Gear can be bought and sold, sure the people running the dungeons and getting lucky will have it first, but they are not spending their tickets farming the deck effect relics. Deck effects once you have astels at a high star level and the flexibility to have lots of relics can be quite impactful according to the korean forums. I would see trying to obtain optimal legendary gear right now to be a gamble itself, gambling on short term advantages instead of playing the long game and going for things that cant be bought and sold. Getting optimal t1 gear seems like wasted effort to me if fusion works the way it does in korea. Play and try to improve it sure, but focus on the real long term gains.
With Avalon coming this month, it's going to get much worse - the power difference is huge and basically results in geared players 1-shotting not geared players.
Thing is avalon is pvpve. So consider, all those people trying to optimize their pve right now wont even be an optimal build for the pvp elements, so they will do the pve end, sensibly.
If they actually result in that sort of cheesy pvp balance then that could be a larger balance issue with the game. But the way these sorts of systems tend to work in mmos is that everyone does certain tasks they are able to do. There seems to be things to grind in avalon near more safer areas. Power gaps are one thing, but denying progress is when stuff breaks down, as long as people are able to keep progressing they are doing ok.

It won't require reworking the entire game. A switch from RNG to fixed is very easy from a technical perspective - just set chance to 100%. It's the reverse (switch from fixed to random) that requires extensive rework, because you have to implement RNG that wasn't there originally.
The games balance and pacing would need to be retuined entirely. Removing RNG would require turning a 20% chance at improvement into a 100% chance of 20% of the old improvement. It would be about further normalizing things. Letting people advance too fast is what kills mmos because people run out of stuff to do.

Overall my general point is that there are so many different kinds of advancement systems, all with their own overlapping rng, that we could expect two players, playing the same amount of time and putting in the same amount of effort, to develop fairly similar levels of progression over a long period. While early on, in the first year say of the game, there might be situations where one is notably stronger than the other, over the course of several years i would expect them to even out. Compare this to some korean rng mmos where you can go a whole month with out any form of progression at all because you just keep getting unlucky.
I also suspect that most people are thinking in terms of weeks or months and not years, which is understandable given the state of the genre now, but if we can not at least think of mmos in terms of years anymore then we may as well give up entirely. Why would anyone spend the time and effort grinding any kind of progression in a game they have already planned to quit?

Short of implimenting a real straight grind which i doubt they will do mainly becaus ethis game is not even set up to handle the kind of dozen hour long pve farming such a thing would necessitate, the effective result of these multiple layered advancement mechanisms is to average out overall advancement far more effectively than many such games, and because of that i consider this game to be fairly light on overal rng compared to what i would consider the typical time gated rng game.
 
Last edited:

Zellata

Astellian
Aug 3, 2019
215
104
43
You need to get all the cards many times. Getting the one card you want is not going to help you much, you need to keep getting it over and over, and this averages out so that astell progression can not be targeted beyond one fourth of your servants, meaning you have to think more in terms of raising your entire collection of them slowly over time. This is the kind of smoothing out effect that means rng is reduced, as the most impact randomization might have is that on one day or another you might be slightly ahead or behind the expected curve for one astel or another, but by the time the one you really want is maxed out, the others you had to be raising with it will also be near maxed. So the difference between a lucky person and an unlucky person, most of the time, would be rather their favored astell is one star level ahead or behind the average for the category (of the 4 box groups and the guardian+savior group).
There are two reasons for raising astel star levels - to get points for stat increase and to bump the astels you actually use in combat. Getting stat points hits diminishing returns, first after 10 points, then after 20 points. Bumping astels that you actually use is subject to RNG, and the problem is exacerbated by you being limited by desired deck effect(s) - there only a few astels of a specific class you can use.

Because by the time you have enough legendary runes for everything you are surely going to have decent stat rolls.
Says who? That's absolutely not a guarantee, as both are subject to RNG. If anything, runes have better odds baked into them than gear, because there's less variation and you can combine lesser runes (which you can craft) for a 25% chance to get a better one.

Yet with all the other sources of +stat%s it wont really ammount to an effective 10% more, since most people will be running around with ~20% from atra crystals as a reasonable expectation and then another guarenteed 16% from the quest legendaries and even their first legendary upgrade can be expected to bring that up to 25% from gear in their most relevent stat even if they only find a somewhat lousy upgrade. So we can assume 145% as a base reasonable expectation, and suddenly that 155% is not such a huge increase.
Uhm, no. When everybody has 145% and you have 155%, that's an effective 10% more. It just the way math works. In other words, if everything you've listed adds up to 1k in a particular stat, but you got lucky on atra crystals and got +30% instead of the average +20%, you end up with 1100 and other players have no means of catching up, aside from more gambling.

My whole point however is that in many games there are only one main way to progress solidly, and that is a win or lose system as well, but in this game because we are constantly layering these systems and getting many chances to win or lose at individually less overall significant things to our entire progress, it averages out more and is less based on rng than those other games where a single lucky win puts you instantly on top and all your time is spent either not progressing at all for weeks and then progressing.
It's exactly the same here, we merely have more "stat holders" than usual. Which is good, because in theory it makes progression more smooth. However, it doesn't help with RNG problem in any meaningful way.

Id assume it will work the way it does in korean version, though maybe not? But depending on the aquisition of sealed equipment i suppose it may or may not be a useful method for trying to salvage sub optimal spreads.
No clue, I can't even find any details on how it works in Korean version.

I keep seeing this focus on things that i dont think are sensible to be focusing on for the long term. Gear can be bought and sold, sure the people running the dungeons and getting lucky will have it first, but they are not spending their tickets farming the deck effect relics. Deck effects once you have astels at a high star level and the flexibility to have lots of relics can be quite impactful according to the korean forums. I would see trying to obtain optimal legendary gear right now to be a gamble itself, gambling on short term advantages instead of playing the long game and going for things that cant be bought and sold. Getting optimal t1 gear seems like wasted effort to me if fusion works the way it does in korea. Play and try to improve it sure, but focus on the real long term gains.
Deck effects are very impactful. Well, sort of - they get impactful at high levels of the effect. However, I don't think that treasures would play such a huge role in that, especially our nerfed-into-the-ground versions. I mean, which deck effect is so great that you would sacrifice the stat increase for it? Remember, we only get 5 points (iirc), so at most you'll bump deck effect to the next level.

Thing is avalon is pvpve. So consider, all those people trying to optimize their pve right now wont even be an optimal build for the pvp elements, so they will do the pve end, sensibly.
If they actually result in that sort of cheesy pvp balance then that could be a larger balance issue with the game. But the way these sorts of systems tend to work in mmos is that everyone does certain tasks they are able to do. There seems to be things to grind in avalon near more safer areas. Power gaps are one thing, but denying progress is when stuff breaks down, as long as people are able to keep progressing they are doing ok.
The only way that would work is by agreement between opposite factions. Along the lines of trading kills or "I let you kill the mob, then you let me kill the mob". It's a very cheesy setup and kind of defeats the purpose of a PvP area.

The games balance and pacing would need to be returned entirely. Removing RNG would require turning a 20% chance at improvement into a 100% chance of 20% of the old improvement. It would be about further normalizing things. Letting people advance too fast is what kills mmos because people run out of stuff to do.
True, but changing odds is a far cry from rewriting the game. It doesn't even require any programmer's work. Besides, the current drop rate in leg. dungeons would be just fine (imho), if the only RNG to beat was getting the item for your class that you're looking for - I mean 6 pieces of gear per class * 5 classes = 1/30 chance that a particular legendary gear drop is the one you wanted.

Overall my general point is that there are so many different kinds of advancement systems, all with their own overlapping rng, that we could expect two players, playing the same amount of time and putting in the same amount of effort, to develop fairly similar levels of progression over a long period. While early on, in the first year say of the game, there might be situations where one is notably stronger than the other, over the course of several years i would expect them to even out. Compare this to some korean rng mmos where you can go a whole month with out any form of progression at all because you just keep getting unlucky.
I also suspect that most people are thinking in terms of weeks or months and not years, which is understandable given the state of the genre now, but if we can not at least think of mmos in terms of years anymore then we may as well give up entirely. Why would anyone spend the time and effort grinding any kind of progression in a game they have already planned to quit?
That's the problem right there - it doesn't work for long period of time, because folks who are noticeably weaker than others will simply quit (which is one of the main reasons we're bleeding players like it's cool). Nobody is going to be willing to stay an underdog for a year. People tend to stay if playing field is level and go look for other games otherwise. Just human nature, I guess.

Short of implimenting a real straight grind which i doubt they will do mainly becaus ethis game is not even set up to handle the kind of dozen hour long pve farming such a thing would necessitate, the effective result of these multiple layered advancement mechanisms is to average out overall advancement far more effectively than many such games, and because of that i consider this game to be fairly light on overal rng compared to what i would consider the typical time gated rng game.
Why do you think that the game is not set up for that? They had no problems with implementing those 300 mobs / 600 mobs quests. It's equally easy to do a similar thing for everything else, either via quests, or via tokens, or via changing to fixed drops. Current setup is just a leftover from a monetization scheme in the Korean version, there's nothing in the game itself that necessitates it.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Jazices and mystykz

Evo

Astellian
May 24, 2019
194
65
28
That's the problem right there - it doesn't work for long period of time, because folks who are noticeably weaker than others will simply quit (which is one of the main reasons we're bleeding players like it's cool). Nobody is going to be willing to stay an underdog for a year. People tend to stay if playing field is level and go look for other games otherwise. Just human nature, I guess.
No they won't quit. They are playing this game right now because they dont have any other game to play. BDO, Archeage, WOW, even GW2 are much better games out there. They would not play Astellia if they really had a choice.
Being noticeably weaker is very questionable. We cannot inspect others in this game so everybody can assume that they got the best gears. Player skill is not noticeable in group PVP, quantity will beat quality.
In my opinion, fail to progress and getting bored are the only reasons will make people quit.
 

Zellata

Astellian
Aug 3, 2019
215
104
43
No they won't quit. They are playing this game right now because they dont have any other game to play. BDO, Archeage, WOW, even GW2 are much better games out there. They would not play Astellia if they really had a choice.
They do have a choice, you've just listed a few choices yourself. That's why the population keeps decreasing - players choose to go back to WOW, GW2, SWTOR, FFXIV, etc.

Being noticeably weaker is very questionable. We cannot inspect others in this game so everybody can assume that they got the best gears. Player skill is not noticeable in group PVP, quantity will beat quality.
You can easily find out by dueling people.

In my opinion, fail to progress and getting bored are the only reasons will make people quit.
We're pretty much talking about the same thing, I think. Failure to progress makes people bored and they quit, because they have no attainable goals to pursue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jazices and mystykz

Jazices

Astellian
Nov 10, 2019
35
34
18
Yep lotsa Stuff going on indeed WoW got lotsa peeps back since Blizzcon as Shadowlands got revealed, FF14 has new Craftercontent,upcoming Bluemage and currently the Alexander Ultimate,GW2 gets new Living World @19th November, SWTOR and ESO i can't talk about don't have them. Soon is Kingdom under Fire 2 Release which some Peeps had intrest in. 2nd Beta of Legends of Runeterra starting at 14th as well. So it is no surprise Playernumbers are harshly dwindling as nothing is done to keep people intrested here as all Updates so far are Playernoncentric and just prolong and make stuff more tedious than already was the case.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lewtz and EnG_ninja

Flet

Astellian
Oct 11, 2019
42
12
8
there only a few astels of a specific class you can use.
Most astells are useful to you due to the amount of points you need for level 3 deck effects, which you can effectively need to bring all relevant astells up to near 10 to obtain some popular combinations we dont even have access to yet. While there are probably a few astels you might not need to raise at all, the fact that you can not target individual astels but can only ever target a block of them means that you can not ever even think in terms of raising a single astel, its just not possible to target one.

You can farm a dungeon, you can buy the star caller coin boxes. These target blocks of servants and at all times anything you do is slowly and uniformly raising your guardians and saviors (now that, apparently, you can not target saviors in their respective dungeons anymore).

What all this means is that at any given time you can set out to try and raise your astels, and have a fairly good idea of what you are getting out of it. You can run a dungeon 10 times in one day, giving you 20 astel drops of the 5 that dungeon drops. You can do a round of weeklies and buy a stack of star caller coin boxes. You can do these things and have a pretty good idea of the average progress you will have made at the end of the day.
Its not RNG because its reliable and it would be quite surprising if you ended up considerably below or above expectations, and even if you were to experience something out of the ordinary that one days worth of effort is not uniquely significant, for it will require many days to actually reach your goal and by then any outlying days will have averaged away.

To claim that this predictable raising of astel star levels counts as rng would be like claiming a farming mob that has a 50% drop rate on the item you are farming is RNG. There is technically a randomized nature to it but you are killing thousands of them and know you will get on average one drop every two kills, and so nobody would complain about that calling it rng in a forum, because despite technicalities people complaining about rng are complaining about the unreliable and unpredictable nature of systems that depend too much on this randomization..
Says who? That's absolutely not a guarantee, as both are subject to RNG. If anything, runes have better odds baked into them than gear, because there's less variation and you can combine lesser runes (which you can craft) for a 25% chance to get a better one.
No guarantees sure, but a much better chance of it than if they did not weigh the jewelry to favor physical or magical stats in the way they did. This was not an example of 'no rng', but rather steps the game took that reduced the potential impactfulness of rng

The runes themselves have a bias to them as well, as surely you have noticed, some stats appear more rarely on certain runes, meaning people may well have a full set of a specific kind of legendary rune for all 3 applicable equipment pieces before they have a single rune of a different type for that stat, assuming they are wanting to stack it.

This biasing helps increase the reliability of expectation, which is the counter to rng.

Uhm, no. When everybody has 145% and you have 155%, that's an effective 10% more.
155 is 6.9% more than 145
When stacking percents the more above 100 you go the less meaningful each extra % becomes, and the more you go below 100 the more meaningful each additional % becomes.


It's exactly the same here, we merely have more "stat holders" than usual. Which is good, because in theory it makes progression more smooth. However, it doesn't help with RNG problem in any meaningful way.
Smoothness is the antithesis of rng, as rng is complained about due to the spikey and unrelaible progression it provides. For example, one might have an item that 'increases' rng of that type, by making it so all asper rewards you recieve are no longer the reward itself, but something anywhere between 95% and 120% of the rewards base value. This is clearly advantageous and everyone would opt to use this item, despite it increasing the radnomized nature. They would do this however because now, on average, they are going to get 7.5% more
No clue, I can't even find any details on how it works in Korean version.
It can do multiple things depending on the nature of the items you combine. If you combine two tier 1 legendaries (the sort we can get now as drops) and a sealed t2, you get a new t2 legendary whos stats are randomized from the input stats of the items. It does other things like lets you turn purples into same tier legendaries, and also upgrade jewelry in a more reliable way than full randomization.

But if my reading of the explanation was correct it would basically be another way for us to roll stats on stuff by using some of the bad rolls we get (like two useful stats and two non useful stats) into an item that's all useful stats.

But i cant find information on seal drops so if they are rare too then the whole cycling stat idea i had wont come to be.

Deck effects are very impactful. Well, sort of - they get impactful at high levels of the effect. However, I don't think that treasures would play such a huge role in that, especially our nerfed-into-the-ground versions. I mean, which deck effect is so great that you would sacrifice the stat increase for it? Remember, we only get 5 points (iirc), so at most you'll bump deck effect to the next level.
Ive heard they do intend the legendary to be 7 points but its a display bug or something. Either way its a matter of whether it gets you the next level of deck effect or not.

Here is where im kind of gambling because it all depends on how fast they raise our astell caps. Ive seen some nice deck effect combinations on the korean forums, which they do indeed run just with the passives, but thats with all 10 star astells..

However even with out the deck effect treasures, the regular stat increasing treasures that drop in dungeons can be hard to get ahold of. Im currently over 100 runs into trying to get the legendary bloody dagger


The only way that would work is by agreement between opposite factions. Along the lines of trading kills or "I let you kill the mob, then you let me kill the mob". It's a very cheesy setup and kind of defeats the purpose of a PvP area.
It seems to be a standard open world three way rvr setup to me. There are mobs, and venturing near the enemy areas all alone is dangerous, so people will be farming mobs around their areas.
Also being able to make alliances is one of the powers that exist for the top players in factions, so you could find a situation where the border between two factions is peaceful because an alliance has been called.
This is the sort of thign we will have to wait and see but avalon and its open world rvr pvpve mechanics was one of the main selling points of the game, so ill assume they have it working out.
Also some of the higher ranking avalon players in korea are using the pve advanced classes, and farming pve points is one of the two main elements to the score. So im pretty confident they have that sorted out.


True, but changing odds is a far cry from rewriting the game. It doesn't even require any programmer's work. Besides, the current drop rate in leg. dungeons would be just fine (imho), if the only RNG to beat was getting the item for your class that you're looking for - I mean 6 pieces of gear per class * 5 classes = 1/30 chance that a particular legendary gear drop is the one you wanted.
Yeah, but we dont have all the mechanism in place yet. Whos to say what gear-obtaining mechanisms might exist once avalon and fusion comes out.
Also its not like a game with BoP where you need to get that yourself. The real rng is only getting good stats on the items. If its good stats for a different class, just sell it.
The real important factor then is how many drops does it take to get 'something' good.
Definitely the most unreliable of progression mechanics right now is getting good stat rolls, and so that should be something looked into.


Why do you think that the game is not set up for that? They had no problems with implementing those 300 mobs / 600 mobs quests. It's equally easy to do a similar thing for everything else, either via quests, or via tokens, or via changing to fixed drops. Current setup is just a leftover from a monetization scheme in the Korean version, there's nothing in the game itself that necessitates it.
Not everyone was doing those quests at the same time. They would need to rework spawn times and probably zones to facilitate everyone having their primary method of progression - and thus the primary thing they do with their time online - be grinding the same mobs in the same zone.

Also those were soloable quests, while you could group for them you didnt need to, i didnt bother. Solo grinding is not always fun, but its more convenient because there is no pressure. Unlike proper grinding games where joining a group is a commitment when solo you can know if you have to go afk for a while its no problem. Grouping needs to be pressured because its not what the individual wants to do, its what the community feels is optimal to do, that dictates what the individual ends up doing in games like this.

To support a group grinding game the proper community alterations would also need to happen to encourage a culture of group grinding. Maybe it would just happen naturally out of necessity but im somewhat jaded to that. Already for example the lfg/lfm tool goes almost entirely unused.

The orcs at hashukal actually ive seen some groups grinding them on occasion, this is more like what would be required. Perhaps they could expand or add places like that
 

Zellata

Astellian
Aug 3, 2019
215
104
43
Its not RNG because its reliable and it would be quite surprising if you ended up considerably below or above expectations, and even if you were to experience something out of the ordinary that one days worth of effort is not uniquely significant, for it will require many days to actually reach your goal and by then any outlying days will have averaged away.
Yes, it's RNG. No, it wouldn't be surprising at all. We're talking about using astels in combat, not merely bumping one's crafting xp for example. One person gets lucky and rolls 160 points on the "right" astels, another rolls 10 points per card. That latter player may be getting good rolls on other astels, but it doesn't really help matters.

155 is 6.9% more than 145
When stacking percents the more above 100 you go the less meaningful each extra % becomes, and the more you go below 100 the more meaningful each additional % becomes.
You're moving goal posts. Your original statement was about 155 percent vs. 145 percent, not absolute values. Absolute values are not applicable here anyway, because stat increases via atra crystals are measured in percentage points. You'd be correct if we were talking about stat increases from jewelry though.

Smoothness is the antithesis of rng, as rng is complained about due to the spikey and unrelaible progression it provides. For example, one might have an item that 'increases' rng of that type, by making it so all asper rewards you recieve are no longer the reward itself, but something anywhere between 95% and 120% of the rewards base value. This is clearly advantageous and everyone would opt to use this item, despite it increasing the radnomized nature. They would do this however because now, on average, they are going to get 7.5% more
Not quite, Smoothness is a separate thing that applies to both RNG-based games and non-RNG games. You can easily create a setup with fixed spikes that has spikes or RNG setup that is smooth. The main issue with RNG is that it's unreliable and almost always results in uneven playing field.

It seems to be a standard open world three way rvr setup to me. There are mobs, and venturing near the enemy areas all alone is dangerous, so people will be farming mobs around their areas.
Also being able to make alliances is one of the powers that exist for the top players in factions, so you could find a situation where the border between two factions is peaceful because an alliance has been called.
This is the sort of thign we will have to wait and see but avalon and its open world rvr pvpve mechanics was one of the main selling points of the game, so ill assume they have it working out.
Also some of the higher ranking avalon players in korea are using the pve advanced classes, and farming pve points is one of the two main elements to the score. So im pretty confident they have that sorted out.
I am not talking about alliances, but about a situation where there's no actual PvP in the PvP zone due to the fact that it's more beneficial for everybody to have a permanent "peace treaty". It's just a bad setup for PvP that usually causes this.

The real important factor then is how many drops does it take to get 'something' good.
Precisely. In our current setup that number is ridiculous. We have 8 stats in total, 2 are considered "good" for a given class. Let's say, we're fine with getting any combination of those two stats. So, on a single stat item you chances of getting that is 1/4. On a 2-stat item it's 1/4 * 1/4 = 1/16. On a 3-stat item it's 1/4 * 1/4 * 1/4 = 1/64. On a 4-stat item it's 1/4 * 1/4 * 1/4 *1/4 = 1/256. That's not accounting for the rolls on each stat or the actual drop rates / crafting procs. In other words, just buying a bracelet or necklace with the right stats from the holy order vendor averages in roughly 1 success per 64 weeks for your class or 1 success per 16 weeks for any class (4/64 instead of 5/64 because archers and sins use the same stats). Just to put that into perspective, there are only 52 weeks in a year.

Not everyone was doing those quests at the same time. They would need to rework spawn times and probably zones to facilitate everyone having their primary method of progression - and thus the primary thing they do with their time online - be grinding the same mobs in the same zone.

Also those were soloable quests, while you could group for them you didnt need to, i didnt bother. Solo grinding is not always fun, but its more convenient because there is no pressure. Unlike proper grinding games where joining a group is a commitment when solo you can know if you have to go afk for a while its no problem. Grouping needs to be pressured because its not what the individual wants to do, its what the community feels is optimal to do, that dictates what the individual ends up doing in games like this.

To support a group grinding game the proper community alterations would also need to happen to encourage a culture of group grinding. Maybe it would just happen naturally out of necessity but im somewhat jaded to that. Already for example the lfg/lfm tool goes almost entirely unused.

The orcs at hashukal actually ive seen some groups grinding them on occasion, this is more like what would be required. Perhaps they could expand or add places like that
Why would it be necessary to do all that? They'd only need to introduce new quests for lvl 50 - at lower levels gear doesn't really matter. It can be done in a form of "run dungeons N times" for example. Or similar to current HG dailies / weeklies, which everybody does without any real problems - the worst hiccup is that sometimes you have to wait a couple of minutes for an HG boss to respawn. It can be solo, it can be group...there are no real constraints there and myriad ways to do it. Heck, they can use Hashukal that you've mentioned for that purpose - there are both solo and group "sub-zones" there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jazices

Zwiebel

Astellian
Jul 4, 2019
409
329
63
Precisely. In our current setup that number is ridiculous. We have 8 stats in total, 2 are considered "good" for a given class. Let's say, we're fine with getting any combination of those two stats. So, on a single stat item you chances of getting that is 1/4. On a 2-stat item it's 1/4 * 1/4 = 1/16. On a 3-stat item it's 1/4 * 1/4 * 1/4 = 1/64. On a 4-stat item it's 1/4 * 1/4 * 1/4 *1/4 = 1/256. That's not accounting for the rolls on each stat or the actual drop rates / crafting procs. In other words, just buying a bracelet or necklace with the right stats from the holy order vendor averages in roughly 1 success per 64 weeks for your class or 1 success per 16 weeks for any class (4/64 instead of 5/64 because archers and sins use the same stats). Just to put that into perspective, there are only 52 weeks in a year.
But this is only because peoples expectations of what are good stats are severely skewed by hearsaying. There are so many people stacking Agi ad absurdum because they heard that Agi is OP, completely ignoring that there is a diminishing returns in stacking that stat. Once you are able to hit everything reliably, the stat loses a lot of its value. Evasion also lost a lot of value since new legendaries came out and its no longer effectively dodging most boss AoEs.
Dex is an was always good as soon as you stacked up on physical crit runes.
Str gets severely underestimated. I dont understand why so many people neglect this stat. You can already see the issue with that in new legendaries as most combos wont crit by default against these bosses. Now they do 250 damage hits because they have no physical atttack to pierce the ridicolous amount of defense these mobs have.
People neglected CON and now they pay the price because 6k hp is not enough to survive boss AoEs anymore. Its also great in Avalon when there is forced pvp everywhere, but hey, people love their mono builds...


Bottom line: you have 4 effective stats on each class, not two.
Only exception is a pure healing scholar that only needs wis and con and nothing else.

It is much easier to get an effective RNG roll if you just dont falsely consider some stats to be useless.
 
  • Like
  • Angry
Reactions: Jazices and Micela

Flet

Astellian
Oct 11, 2019
42
12
8
Yes, it's RNG. No, it wouldn't be surprising at all. We're talking about using astels in combat, not merely bumping one's crafting xp for example. One person gets lucky and rolls 160 points on the "right" astels, another rolls 10 points per card. That latter player may be getting good rolls on other astels, but it doesn't really help matters.
For a short period of time. that 160 is not enough to make a huge difference when you consider how many 160s would be required to 10 star it, or even reach the current cap of 7. Getting deck effects sorted is by far the long term progression of astells, the other things will happen neutrally by the time you get them all raised, and, moreover, getting them all raised should be what effort is spent on, not trying to target a specific astel, because again you cant target a specific one even if you wanted to.

Is it possible someone will get very luck and get high bonuses to the same astel repeatedly? Yes, but due to the amount of mechanics that require to line up for this it can hardly be seen as the expected curve of advancement, and people complain about rng when it does not have a solid expectation, not when outliers are merely 'possible'.

You're moving goal posts. Your original statement was about 155 percent vs. 145 percent, not absolute values. Absolute values are not applicable here anyway, because stat increases via atra crystals are measured in percentage points. You'd be correct if we were talking about stat increases from jewelry though.
They are the same thing. You apply those multipliers to what ever your base stats are.155 percent is an extra 55 points for every 100 of base stat you have, 145 percent is an extra 45 points for every 100 of base stat you have. Or another way, its an extra 0.55 and 0.45 of each base point you have.
145%*106.9%=155%
A person with 155% across the board is 6.9% stronger than a person with 145% across the board. Its all just an alternate way of raising the actual final value.


Not quite, Smoothness is a separate thing that applies to both RNG-based games and non-RNG games. You can easily create a setup with fixed spikes that has spikes or RNG setup that is smooth. The main issue with RNG is that it's unreliable and almost always results in uneven playing field.
It either has to be or the aformentioned mob in the example will lead to horrible uneven playing fields.
How could such a mob do this? If players could only kill said mob once a month, then at first, for several months, there could easily be radical unevenness, but this would normalize over time. And likewise if you were free to farm that mob quickly such unevenness would vanish after just a few hours.

A randomized chance is just a method of distributing progression. I, again, like removing randomization entirely but there comes a point when the actual effective outcome is the same regardless of whether that mob drops every time half as much or its normal amount.

This is important to point out, because it means when people discuss rng they are not tlaking about the specific mechanic of things being random. Nobody for example would consider damage ranges to be 'rng', untill the point that the damage ranges are so vast that it creates an unpredictable situation.
RNG complaints then are about unpredictable situations, not the mechanics that produce them.



I am not talking about alliances, but about a situation where there's no actual PvP in the PvP zone due to the fact that it's more beneficial for everybody to have a permanent "peace treaty". It's just a bad setup for PvP that usually causes this.
This would still be pvp, in that there are groups of players competing with each other. All competition is a form of pvp. Actually fighting one character with another is simply a manifestation which can be abstracted away. Their hitpoints and your hitpoints could be the score, and the skills you push could just as easily be pinball paddles. In the end its about figuring out the method to out-do the other person.

Such situations would likley have cyclical metas where for a while people try to optimize points gained one way, then someone figures out when and how much it is optimal to try and hamper progression in the other way (as far as i know the final score of each person is some combination of the two which interact in some way, so you will want to be doing both ideally, but i couldnt understand the exact scoring mechanics through google translate)


Precisely. In our current setup that number is ridiculous. We have 8 stats in total, 2 are considered "good" for a given class. Let's say, we're fine with getting any combination of those two stats. So, on a single stat item you chances of getting that is 1/4. On a 2-stat item it's 1/4 * 1/4 = 1/16. On a 3-stat item it's 1/4 * 1/4 * 1/4 = 1/64. On a 4-stat item it's 1/4 * 1/4 * 1/4 *1/4 = 1/256. That's not accounting for the rolls on each stat or the actual drop rates / crafting procs. In other words, just buying a bracelet or necklace with the right stats from the holy order vendor averages in roughly 1 success per 64 weeks for your class or 1 success per 16 weeks for any class (4/64 instead of 5/64 because archers and sins use the same stats). Just to put that into perspective, there are only 52 weeks in a year.
8 months to get two monostat bracelet/necklace wouldnt be so bad, but its not as good as that unfortunately as some stats are really less useful all around.

Ive agreed getting optimal stats on all your gear is the hardest element of the progression. But you dont need perfect stats, as most people would be just happy with their main stat getting two and 'something useful' being the third. And i doubt it would make that much of a power difference in the end. In fact always having that little extra bit of improvement hanging there could be a drive to keep playing. Look at games like diablo where people with the optimal stuff would still keep looking for better rolls on them.

In either case all these things are not binary. You can far more easily find good stat spreads on purple jewelry that's almost as good. There are many examples of games where you need a specific thing and untill you get it you can basically do nothing but continue trying to find it. Does from a purple monostat bracelet to a legendary monostat bracelet radically alter your capabilities? I am fully for more systems to hopefully let people get such things more reliably, but seeing claims of rng in this game being so unbearably bad when its more of a middle ground in terms of mmos go does not help because its apparent the way this game works is with layers of rng, and the mechanisms they have added that have the effect of increasing expectation of progression have all been modifications of the rng and not eliminations of it. It would be better then to go along with this and suggest more things to improve the mechanisms of mitigating these things.

For example, make selling things on the AH unbind them automatically, no need for beeswax. This would let people have more access to mid-range gear because people would not have to think if unbinding that item to sell is worth the beeswax or not. Beeswax can then be for people who want to escape the tax or trade things directly. This would make the AH more active, stimulating the economy, and ensuring the framework exists for that one every 4 months good legendary that just doesnt happen to be your needed stats can be sold because people would be conditioned to run right over to the AH instead of question whether they should try to spam all chat or ask around instead. Here we see how the game mechanics alter the player psychology, which is a very important thing to keep in mind, players are always only responding to the game around them, and their behavior is always the fault of the mechanics of the game.


Why would it be necessary to do all that? They'd only need to introduce new quests for lvl 50 - at lower levels gear doesn't really matter. It can be done in a form of "run dungeons N times" for example. Or similar to current HG dailies / weeklies, which everybody does without any real problems - the worst hiccup is that sometimes you have to wait a couple of minutes for an HG boss to respawn. It can be solo, it can be group...there are no real constraints there and myriad ways to do it. Heck, they can use Hashukal that you've mentioned for that purpose - there are both solo and group "sub-zones" there.
Because if everyone started to do it it would get too crowded, you could try to do it with channels i guess but this is itself somewhat counterproductive because such things have always focused heavily on the character of the grinding location and people having comfortable spots. Dozens of loading screens to find just the right area for your group, and the inability to wander around looking for group/soloing next to people until a spot opens up would reduce the community sense.
Enjoyable community activities require there to be a community, and modern mmos do many things that destroy the sense of community in the game by dividing players up with instances, channels, and encouraging guild-centricity.
The nature of the grinding then is very important because it is the difference between a tedious thing nobody wants to do and a fun thing people enjoy.
 
Last edited:

Zellata

Astellian
Aug 3, 2019
215
104
43
But this is only because peoples expectations of what are good stats are severely skewed by hearsaying. There are so many people stacking Agi ad absurdum because they heard that Agi is OP, completely ignoring that there is a diminishing returns in stacking that stat. Once you are able to hit everything reliably, the stat loses a lot of its value. Evasion also lost a lot of value since new legendaries came out and its no longer effectively dodging most boss AoEs.
Dex is an was always good as soon as you stacked up on physical crit runes.
Str gets severely underestimated. I dont understand why so many people neglect this stat. You can already see the issue with that in new legendaries as most combos wont crit by default against these bosses. Now they do 250 damage hits because they have no physical atttack to pierce the ridicolous amount of defense these mobs have.
People neglected CON and now they pay the price because 6k hp is not enough to survive boss AoEs anymore. Its also great in Avalon when there is forced pvp everywhere, but hey, people love their mono builds...


Bottom line: you have 4 effective stats on each class, not two.
Only exception is a pure healing scholar that only needs wis and con and nothing else.

It is much easier to get an effective RNG roll if you just dont falsely consider some stats to be useless.
That's a cool theory, but unfortunately it has nothing to do with how the game actually works. The only people who stack AGI are archers and sins. The rest stack their respective primary stats, and for a good reason. That being said, you're certainly free to build your main into whatever you want, even if it's a CON-based archer or a pure healing scholar stacking WIS due to some weird need to bump magic accuracy.
 

Zellata

Astellian
Aug 3, 2019
215
104
43
For a short period of time. that 160 is not enough to make a huge difference when you consider how many 160s would be required to 10 star it, or even reach the current cap of 7. Getting deck effects sorted is by far the long term progression of astells, the other things will happen neutrally by the time you get them all raised, and, moreover, getting them all raised should be what effort is spent on, not trying to target a specific astel, because again you cant target a specific one even if you wanted to.

Is it possible someone will get very luck and get high bonuses to the same astel repeatedly? Yes, but due to the amount of mechanics that require to line up for this it can hardly be seen as the expected curve of advancement, and people complain about rng when it does not have a solid expectation, not when outliers are merely 'possible'.
You're missing the point. Yes, in a very long term everybody will get every astel to 10 stars (assuming that the game survives that long - it will take a LOT of time). However in a shorter term, let's say 3 to 6 months, that won't happen, and some of your astels will have more stars than others. Now, let's say that I want "passionate" deck effect for PvP for example (just off top of my head) - if I get lucky and have 7 star Canceria, I am golden...if I am not so lucky and have 7 star Kukuma instead, I am screwed.

It either has to be or the aformentioned mob in the example will lead to horrible uneven playing fields.
How could such a mob do this? If players could only kill said mob once a month, then at first, for several months, there could easily be radical unevenness, but this would normalize over time. And likewise if you were free to farm that mob quickly such unevenness would vanish after just a few hours.

A randomized chance is just a method of distributing progression. I, again, like removing randomization entirely but there comes a point when the actual effective outcome is the same regardless of whether that mob drops every time half as much or its normal amount.

This is important to point out, because it means when people discuss rng they are not tlaking about the specific mechanic of things being random. Nobody for example would consider damage ranges to be 'rng', untill the point that the damage ranges are so vast that it creates an unpredictable situation.
RNG complaints then are about unpredictable situations, not the mechanics that produce them.
That's true, but there's a bit more to it. A randomized chance produces uneven results by definition. Yes, there are certainly ways to minimize or smooth those results, but fixed outcome gets rid of the problem completely. So, this brings up an obvious question - why bother with RNG and subsequently try to even out the results, when you can simply go for "specific task gives specific result" design and save everybody a lot of headache.

This would still be pvp, in that there are groups of players competing with each other. All competition is a form of pvp. Actually fighting one character with another is simply a manifestation which can be abstracted away. Their hitpoints and your hitpoints could be the score, and the skills you push could just as easily be pinball paddles. In the end its about figuring out the method to out-do the other person.

Such situations would likley have cyclical metas where for a while people try to optimize points gained one way, then someone figures out when and how much it is optimal to try and hamper progression in the other way (as far as i know the final score of each person is some combination of the two which interact in some way, so you will want to be doing both ideally, but i couldnt understand the exact scoring mechanics through google translate)
Generally speaking, yes - all competition is technically PvP. However, the term usually means combat between players, not merely a race to be the world's first to clear some raid.

8 months to get two monostat bracelet/necklace wouldnt be so bad, but its not as good as that unfortunately as some stats are really less useful all around.
It wouldn't be, but with the current setup it will take on average 16 months to get one 2-stat bracelet/necklace from that vendor. For a 1-stat bracelet / necklace it would be 1/8 * 1/8 * 1/8 = 1/512 = roughly one success in 512 weeks (just shy of 10 years).

Ive agreed getting optimal stats on all your gear is the hardest element of the progression. But you dont need perfect stats, as most people would be just happy with their main stat getting two and 'something useful' being the third. And i doubt it would make that much of a power difference in the end. In fact always having that little extra bit of improvement hanging there could be a drive to keep playing. Look at games like diablo where people with the optimal stuff would still keep looking for better rolls on them.
Diablo is more cooperative than competitive. In our case those people would only stay happy until they got steamrolled in PvP by someone with the right stats or until they failed to complete the content that happened to be balanced for folks with the right stats. Mind you, not perfect rolls but only right stats for the class - adding something like "with all rolls at 50+" to the mix produces decidedly depressing results.

In either case all these things are not binary. You can far more easily find good stat spreads on purple jewelry that's almost as good. There are many examples of games where you need a specific thing and untill you get it you can basically do nothing but continue trying to find it. Does from a purple monostat bracelet to a legendary monostat bracelet radically alter your capabilities? I am fully for more systems to hopefully let people get such things more reliably, but seeing claims of rng in this game being so unbearably bad when its more of a middle ground in terms of mmos go does not help because its apparent the way this game works is with layers of rng, and the mechanisms they have added that have the effect of increasing expectation of progression have all been modifications of the rng and not eliminations of it. It would be better then to go along with this and suggest more things to improve the mechanisms of mitigating these things.
Their game - their rules, that goes without saying. I just don't see this setup surviving for very long. As a matter of fact, I can't think of any MMO built around RNG in this particular fashion that survived in the western market. Maybe BDO, but folks seem to like it because of cool scenery more than treating it as any sort of competitive environment.

Because if everyone started to do it it would get too crowded, you could try to do it with channels i guess but this is itself somewhat counterproductive because such things have always focused heavily on the character of the grinding location and people having comfortable spots. Dozens of loading screens to find just the right area for your group, and the inability to wander around looking for group/soloing next to people until a spot opens up would reduce the community sense.
Enjoyable community activities require there to be a community, and modern mmos do many things that destroy the sense of community in the game by dividing players up with instances, channels, and encouraging guild-centricity.
The nature of the grinding then is very important because it is the difference between a tedious thing nobody wants to do and a fun thing people enjoy.
Everybody does HG dailies around the same time with only one channel - doesn't seem to be an issue. As for community, I have to disagree with you here - there's a reason "open world" style MMOs are practically extinct, and got replaced by "theme park" style. Most people passionately hate that whole "wonder around looking for a spot" business and would much rather have content available on-demand.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jazices

Zwiebel

Astellian
Jul 4, 2019
409
329
63
That's a cool theory, but unfortunately it has nothing to do with how the game actually works. The only people who stack AGI are archers and sins. The rest stack their respective primary stats, and for a good reason. That being said, you're certainly free to build your main into whatever you want, even if it's a CON-based archer or a pure healing scholar stacking WIS due to some weird need to bump magic accuracy.
I obviously meant WIL, but you are too much stuck up in your own world of semantics to discuss these things anyway.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Jazices

Zellata

Astellian
Aug 3, 2019
215
104
43
I obviously meant WIL, but you are too much stuck up in your own world of semantics to discuss these things anyway.
How are we supposed to know what you meant after the notion that mages and warriors stack AGI?
 

Jazices

Astellian
Nov 10, 2019
35
34
18
@Zellata ignore Zwiebel,ronoch etc they are all stubborn old People stuck in the Old Ways not likeing/being for Change and wanting the Game to die if the game will be adjusted for the likes of them which so far is the case as developers are listening to the wrong crowd. Instead of to the likes of Terra,you etc they listen to those making only suggestions which make the game even more prolonging and tedious and we can see what success listening to that oldfashioned people does aka the game is already dieing down and will be dead aka become f2p+p2w come 2020 if they continue listening to those instead of listening to the real people who say the truth that RNG is to much in this with no way to lessen it, that the Ticketsystem is beyond stupid and needs fixing asap,that the loot is terrible due to the RNG/length of time Bosssponges take to kill in the Legdungeons,that with current systems in place you won’t be anywhere close to 10 star all astels in the short lived lifetime this will have if they don’t change things around drastically etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zellata and mystykz

Zwiebel

Astellian
Jul 4, 2019
409
329
63
@Zellata ignore Zwiebel,ronoch etc they are all stubborn old People stuck in the Old Ways not likeing/being for Change and wanting the Game to die if the game will be adjusted for the likes of them which so far is the case as developers are listening to the wrong crowd. Instead of to the likes of Terra,you etc they listen to those making only suggestions which make the game even more prolonging and tedious and we can see what success listening to that oldfashioned people does aka the game is already dieing down and will be dead aka become f2p+p2w come 2020 if they continue listening to those instead of listening to the real people who say the truth that RNG is to much in this with no way to lessen it, that the Ticketsystem is beyond stupid and needs fixing asap,that the loot is terrible due to the RNG/length of time Bosssponges take to kill in the Legdungeons,that with current systems in place you won’t be anywhere close to 10 star all astels in the short lived lifetime this will have if they don’t change things around drastically etc.
Its more like: We like the game we purchased instead of wanting the game to be something else.

But, sure, you are entitled to your opinion.